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You must have heard the Duke Ellington/Paul Francis Webster torch song that is also the title of this thread. It goes like this,

quote:

Though folks with good intentions
Tell me to save my tears
Well I'm so mad about him
I can't live without him
Never treats me sweet and gentle
The way he should
I've got it bad
And that ain't good
And when the weekend's over
And Monday rolls around
I end up like I start out
Just crying my heart out
He don't love me like I love him
No, nobody could
I've got it bad
And that ain't good
Lord above me, make him love me
The way he should
I got it bad
And that ain't good

I miss the "True Love in Japan and Korea" thread because things were said on it that we could not read anywhere else, and I feel we still have so much more to share on the topic of Love. So without any geographic restriction, this thread is dedicated to love and all of you who can relate to the lyrics above and the story below.

Let's start off this thread with what a good friend of mine related to me in a private message. I reproduce it here with his permission.

quote:

There is a student at the school where I teach called Min, a young, 25-year-old Korean lad. He is truly beautiful, the beau of the entire school (although quite an annoying prima donna at times!). I taught him for eight weeks and not a lesson went past when my sweet imagination didn't wander far beyond the grammar point in question. Last night we held an end of course party in a small club near the school. All the staff and students attended. At one point I was sitting down watching proceedings, when Min came over and sat down beside me. He put his arm around me and said thanks for the teaching, and then tried to make conversation, and all I could think was, 'please, Min, please, please, please, please, please go away'. Not because I didn't want him there (oh, I did, I did), but because a) he's straight; b) I'm his teacher; c) beside such a lean, smooth young man, I felt like some craggy, ugly rock: and d) all I wanted to do was kiss him. Just kiss him. Purely physically. Not soul to soul but lip to lip. And all those reasons why I couldn't kiss him, and why I will never be able to kiss him, overwhelmed me with a terrible sadness. That's why I wanted him to go away. I wanted him to go away and take the situation with him. It's terrible - I'm sure he thought I was being off-hand - I hardly said a word!

The story above is not about love, but rather physical attraction, yet one wonders...

KF

quote:

Originally posted by Kazuhito fan:
The story above is not about love, but rather physical attraction...

Actually, it sounds like it is more a story of self-pity, self-loathing, and self-absorption to me.

But I will agree with the teacher on one point: what he did really is terrible (though any sense of true regret was notably missing from the teacher's admission).

What wasn't missing, though, was the sense of just how self-absorbed this teacher is. As we age, we may lose the body of our youth, but at least that loss is supposed to be offset by gains in maturity, wisdom, and perhaps most importantly, dignity. The teacher, though, sounds like a teenager in a middle-aged (or later) body. The real irony here is that the student sounds more mature than the teacher.

Wrongly or not, the gay community is often disparaged as being overly focused on "self-gratification", and this kind of anecdote only reinforces that stereotype.

Greg

Unlike Greg, I judged the story more from the viewpoint of the student's, i.e. Min's behavior.

Here is a handsome (and he knows it) 25-year old man from Korea, a society that holds teachers in high respect, who puts his arm around our friend to say "thank you". I thought this was disrespectful and even provocative. I empathize with the teacher whose reaction showed restraint in circumstances (a club, courses over) that could have made it easy to give-in and "play-along" with the brazen seduction. Min could not have failed to have perceived the attraction he was exerting, and used his physical charm in a way calculated to bring out a response in his teacher.

Attractive young men, just like women, are all too well aware of their power of seduction over both sexes, and get a thrill using it to their advantage or even just for fun. Teachers often become the target of infatuation or seduction by their students.

That is why same-sex attraction within such a context can be so painful. You have to hold back, control your impulses, resist the unbearable temptation, all the more as you are in a position of superiority status-wise, but vulnerability sexuality-wise.

Impossible and unrequited love between the 'seductee' and his 'seductor' is the worst of all in my experience. It seems fair enough for a teacher to give the "cold shoulder" to his 'tormentor' in the above circumstances.

KF

quote:

Originally posted by Kazuhito fan:
Impossible and unrequited love between the 'seductee' and his 'seductor' is the worst of all in my experience. It seems fair enough for a teacher to give the "cold shoulder" to his 'tormentor' in the above circumstances.

And a mature teacher would certainly know that a cold shoulder in response to someone who is teasing you is not inappropriate at all, much less "terrible."

The guilt the teacher claims to feel makes it very difficult for me to accept the scenario you are suggesting. There are more innocent and less innocent ways of putting your arm around someone, so I'm not going to assume the worst of the student for that one, single act.

Anyway, I guess it just shows how easy it is to read the same thing in a very different way. My reaction when reading this wasn't sympathetic like yours, but rather, I felt like I'd want to grab him by the lapels and say "My God, man, get a grip!" (Of course, I'm not the kind who would ever read a romance novel, either, since I'm sure I'd be yelling in frustration at the love-stricken characters to get a grip, too.)

quote:

Originally posted by gregwk:
I'm sure I'd be yelling in frustration at the love-stricken characters to get a grip, too.)

When you were/are hopelesslylove-stricken, what do you do?

KF

quote:

Originally posted by Kazuhito fan:
When you were/are hopelesslylove-stricken, what do you do?

I remind myself, as Tina Turner reminds us in one of her songs, that it's only love.

(Oh, and I remember that science has identified the chemical in our brains that is released that causes those sensations, and they also discovered that it wears off within about a year. Of course, they are not saying that the love will necessarily be gone after a year, but that sense of infatuation will.)

quote:

Attractive young men, just like women, are all too well aware of their power of seduction over both sexes, and get a thrill using it to their advantage or even just for fun.

I am not sure that is true. I think sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't. A lot of straight guys are pretty clueless when it comes to knowing what other men are attracted too. I was about as straight as you could be until my mid thirties and I had no clue about what attracted men to each other. After I got attracted to men, I learned a lot and can now see when men are attracted to me or are flirting with me. But I had no clue before, seriously. I think a lot of straight guys have no idea when they are turning another man on and many would have no idea of how to seduce a man. Another side note, I understand what women see in men now that I have been with a few men myself.

quote:

Originally posted by rumandcoke:
I was about as straight as you could be until my mid thirties and I had no clue about what attracted men to each other. After I got attracted to men, I learned a lot and can now see when men are attracted to me or are flirting with me. But I had no clue before, seriously. I think a lot of straight guys have no idea when they are turning another man on and many would have no idea of how to seduce a man.

Thank you, Rumandcoke, for a valuable contribution to this thread! Of course, you are right, and I am guilty, as always, of over-generalization. Generalization is something Frenchmen -like myself- consider one of the worst intellectual crimes possible...

I should have written "Many attractive men"...

In Japan, where I am located, outward appeareance is a significant cultural element. The way you "show" yourself to others is an important message, often the actual one upon which all your relationships will revolve around.

Attractive young gay men in Japan are very much conscious of the power of attraction and seduction they exert. Narcissism is not discouraged (far from it!) and, even when not in the least justified, indulged in by ordinary-looking people who love to admire their reflection in subway door windows...

Japan is an 'image' society that thrives upon what others think of it.

There are three types of Jguys, basically. Those who know the power of attraction they exert and use; those who don't because they are "clueless" as you put it; and those who hate/fear that power and hide their attributes -as much as they can- to other men.

Handsome, flirtatious Jguys are Public Enemies No.1! How can we possibly resist them? Please tell me how...

KF

To bring the thread back to the tone initially intended, allow me to post a poem by my favorite contemporary British poet...

He is a member of this site, and I am honored to have met him. He is my friend. His work is very close to my heart.

You will no doubt feel the same after reading this...

quote:

Love is...

Love is the word that laps
between the shores
of 'you' and 'i'

the pause between
'go!' and 'i'm sorry'

the pause between
'sorry' and 'stay'

love is laughing
in the mirror
(though shy of the lens)

love is 'farewell'
to your parents

to your children
love's 'fare well'

love is in the lips
that say
'I love you'
and the kiss that says
'I know'

love is more than i can sing
so much more than i can sing

love is us
and
love
is
poetry
is
love
and love
is
you

What is love for/to you?

KF

quote:

Originally posted by Kazuhito fan:
What is love for/to you?

Something we tend to obsess over when we don't have it, and take for granted when we do.

quote:

Originally posted by gregwk:
Something we tend to obsess over when we don't have it, and take for granted when we do.

Love... I can survive without it, but not live fully without someone who is willing to accept mine and share his own.

KF

My friend wrote this Sonnet for us...

quote:

Where once our moments

Where once our moments were together spent
A long day's travel holds us now apart
But separation has not made a dent
In my affection, nor impaired my heart;
For often in a dream your image blooms
And echoes of your voice delight my soul
While some sweet odours call to mind the rooms
From where by night we into heaven stole.
Thus when my senses gauge the span that parts
The two of us, 'tis not a distance real
Nor can the measurement of maps and charts
With worldly numbers this my love conceal;
But your affection now is undefined
And may with parting have, I fear, declined.

That fear is also love, for often love is all is left after the other has gone away.

KF

At top, KF wrote:

quote:

I miss the "True Love in Japan and Korea" thread because things were said on it that we could not read anywhere else, and I feel we still have so much more to share on the topic of Love.

I also miss that "True Love..." thread. I worked through the very tough issue of losing my last JBF with the help of KF-sama and many other generous souls. There was passion expressed on there I don't recall seeing on any other threads. Not always positive, poetic, or even pleasant, but REALLY PASSIONATE!

I'm already working on my next broken heart, by striking up a correspondence with an incredibly cute, western-friendly J-guy I met online at another site. How can this ever work? Well, in my life 'nothing ventured, nothing gained' is a VAST understatement.

May I FOREVER be the fool who believes that Love Conquers All!

quote:

Originally posted by CrashLandon2:
May I FOREVER be the fool who believes that Love Conquers All!

As the song goes, "people who need people are the happiest people...". Love is needing someone to give to and receive from the proof that we are really alive, livin' and kickin'. Without love, we just 'are', we only exist.

Good luck, Crash, with your new conquest! We all look forward to reading your progress report!

KF

PS. To wish CrashLandon good luck, I have renamed this thread "True Love: I got it bad and that ain't good..."

Those American torch songs are amazing... You'd think they were written by men for other men, for Jguys, USguys and the rest of us, NonJ/USguys.

I love those lyrics! Take the famous "Bewitched"...

quote:

I'm wild again, beguiled again
A simpering, whimpering child again
Bewitched, bothered and bewildered - am i

Love's the same old sad sensation
Lately I've not slept a wink
Since this half-pint imitation
Put me on the blink

I've sinned a lot, I'm mean a lot
But I'm like sweet seventeen a lot
Bewitched, bothered and bewildered - am i

I'll sing to him, each spring to him
And worship the trousers that cling to him

When he talks, he is seeking
Words to get, off his chest
Horizontally speaking, he's at his very best

Vexed again, perplexed again
Thank god, I can be oversexed again
Bewitched, bothered and bewildered - am i

Only Gays worship the trousers that cling to the man they love...

KF

I dedicate "Something Wonderful" to my Jguy whose English is not good enough for him to appreciate the following, but he knows how I feel... I hope. He is my True Love.

quote:

This is a man who thinks with his heart,
His heart is not always wise.
This is a man who stumbles and falls,
But this is a man who tries.

This is a man you'll forgive and forgive,
And help protect, as long as you live...

He may not always say
What you would have him say
But now and then he'll say something wonderful

The thoughtless things he'll do
Will hurt and worry you
Then all at once he'll do something wonderful

He has a thousand dreams that won't come true
You know that he believes in them
And that's enough for you

You'll always go along
Defend him when he's wrong
And tell him when he's strong
He is wonderful

He'll always need your love
And so you'll get you're love
A man who needs your love
Can be
Wonderful.

With much love,

KF

hi i am in us outside nyc, where u now?

quote:

Originally posted by trouble:
hi i am in us outside nyc, where u now?

On this thread. Why?

KF

Try Sinéad O'Connor's version of Bewitched... on Am I Your Girl? Just fantastic.

Is it just me over here, or is there a bit of a crooner revival going on? I playing a lot of Peggy Lee, Cleo Laine, etc. at the moment.

Oh and KF, playing hard to get?

sorry guys...its a little refreshing to see all of your romantic notions and beliefs...but, I have to say ..."been there done that"...I want nothing of love of pants and wild fantastical infaturations. Gimme good sex and a cozy one night stand and I am set for a month or until the bodies cravings overcome mental control. My heart couldnt go thru another bout of love it would render me a vegetable. It is sweet though to see all of the hope and promise of all these pounding hearts...

So Jaejae, you never feel enough about your latest encounter to want to see them again? What do they feel about you? Have you broken any hearts lately? Do you miss any of them? Do they miss you?

Yikes, Jaejae! There's a lot of room between infatuation and one-night-stands. In fact, I'd argue that it is the space between these two where real love can be found. If you are happy with one-night-stands, there's nothing at all wrong with that. But don't *settle* for one-night stands as the alternative to infatuation -- it's a false alternative. Infatuation isn't love. Infatuation is being in love with being in love.

Quite bizarly (pass me a shrink) I have been reminded of a song from Stanley Kubrick's A Clockwork Orange...

I want to marry a lighthouse keeper
and live by the side of the sea
....

We'd take walks along the moonlit bay
Maybe find some treasure too
Dream of living in a lighthouse baby
How about you?

(It can be found on ITunes store!)

Now that's love isn't it? All I know about romance I read on the back of a candy bar, but I'm a real soppy git at heart.

quote:

Originally posted by gregwk:
Infatuation is being in love with being in love.

I am not so sure. In my limited experience, infatuation is wanting sex with someone who is not interested so desperately that it becomes an obsession. When you do get the sex, the obsession vanishes and there is not much left. The sexual gratification is little different from that of a one night stand. Both infatuation and one-night stands are about sex.

Love, for me, stands on the opposite side of the street. It is besides and beyond sex. It is needing a person, not wanting a body. I often love the most dearly the person whose body attracts me the least. In fact, my life's two LTR partners came at the bottom of my list of physical preferences. Sex with both was below average. What glued us together was something else: mutual respect, common attitudes, some shared values and much affection.

The romance found in the poetry or songs quoted above adds sparkle to my relationships, and makes even the not-so-great sex feel meaningful and important. It is like bubbles in Champagne. Romance is a celebration of togetherness. It is, for me, the indispensable spice of love. My monosodium glutamate. It makes love taste true.

I can visualize your eyes rolling while reading this post...

Sorry. I can't help it!

KF

Richard Isay, M.D.,

quote:

"I am convinced that a relationship of romantic love combining deep friendship and passion, in which on loves and feels loved by one other person over many years, is the most effective way to provide the sense of self-worth that can compensate for injuries sustained in childhood and adolescence. Nor, it seems to me, does any other human endeavor provide the same degree of personal happiness as this relationship, which enhances no only your value but your appreciation of others and the pleasure and the beauty one experiences in the world. For many gay men, especially those who are not religious and those who do not have children, loving and being loved in a long-lasting relationship usually gives their lives transcendent significance."

The above is from:

quote:

Commitment and Healing
Isay, Richard
A leading gay psychiatrist examines the reasons why gay men require love in a committed relationship, explaining how to overcome the obstacles to developing a fulfilling relationship and why open relationships can lead to problems. John Wiley and Sons Ltd.

A couple of reviews...

quote:

"What's love got to do with it? Everything, according to Richard Isay's informed and illuminating look at the role of romance in modern gay life. I highly recommend this book for people of any generation and partnership status."
—Dean H. Hamer, Ph.D., author of The Science of Desire and The God Gene

quote:

"Gay people seek the freedom to marry for the same mix of reasons as non-gay people, and for most, love and commitment are central. Drawing on his exceptional expertise and decades of stories from his patients, Richard Isay explores the challenges and value of romantic love—how to overcome our pasts and enrich our present lives at home—as we build a future of greater equality and inclusion in society."
—Evan Wolfson, author of Why Marriage Matters

You will find more insightful excerpts of the book HERE.

KF

Although I am happy in a LTR with a Jguy still in his twenties, what shocks me is that I should still think constantly about dicks and sex. The gay libido runs parallel to the affection that nurtures the stable relationship, and keeps it going physically, but does it have to be that strong?

I am into romantic love, torch songs and candlelit dinners, but a life without 2D or preferably 3D porn? I don't think I could survive...

My pants are ruled by a tyrant!



How about you?

KF

This is a great thread! I'm with KF: I'm hopelessly romantic, relentlessly sexual and "wired" for deep relationships.

Currently I'm experiencing something that hasn't happened for years. I have a good old-fashioned crush on a guy at work. Because it's at work I can't do my usual full-court press to achieve my desired result and further, the guy is being very coy although he can't keep his eyes off me. We encounter each other frequently in the building (sometimes engineered by yours truly) and, good news or bad news, we're at weekly meetings together. In the next few weeks I'm going to be facilitating a training session for a small group, and yup! he's in the group. Thankfully, my feelings are managable and the most notable effect of this crush is that I feel 22 again.

I'm grateful that I've had several deep, long-term (four or more years) relationships. Reading this thread has caused me to reflect on the boundaries or demarkations between lust, infatuation, limerence (see my next post), falling in love, being in love, and loving. What gregwk says is true, that the initial feeling lasts about a year, and he's backed up by research. For me, after that first year, I know things are right if the feeling of love (noun) is at least half-balanced by the action of love (verb). I think there's no true love without sacrifice: each partner letting go of their preferences and egos and "stuff" when necessary for the other and/or the relationship. (Of course this can turn dysfunctional or pathological but that's not what I'm talking about.)

And speaking of "stuff," my experience of relationships has been that I've been forced to face and deal with every bit of selfishness, pettyness and all that nasty stuff in myself, but also deeper issues. I think love relationships are how we strip away the junk and find our true selves.

And I love a hot romp on the percale with an old friend from last night. And I look at guys' crotches and asses all the time.

Aren't we wonderfully made!

One of my favorite words: LIMERENCE.

quote:

Limerence is a state of mind characterized by intrusive thinking, longing, uncertainty, hope, misperception, fantasies, and passion. Limerence has been described as "having a crush", "infatuation", "passionate love", "puppy love", "romantic love" or "being in love." It is important to note that limerence is neither love nor sexual attraction. Love, sexual attraction, and limerence can all exist without each other or any or all of them can coexist together.

Limerence begins as a barely perceptible feeling of increased interest in a particular person, known as the limerent object, but one which, if nurtured by appropriate conditions, can grow to enormous intensity. In most cases it also declines, eventually to zero or to a low level. At this low level, limerence is either transformed through reciprocation or it is transferred to another person who then becomes the new limerent object. Under the best of conditions the waning of limerence through mutuality is accompanied by the growth of the emotional response more suitably described as love.

Good article here.

Puts things in perspective, thinking and saying "my limerent object."

Limerence is a great word and I read the Wikipedia article and the numerous links with much interest. I hope Kimball will tell us how his state of limerence and the reaction of his limerent object evolve with time!

I found the following in Kimball's Wikipedia link,

quote:

Distinctions from love and sex.

Love, in most of its meanings, involves concern for the other person's welfare and feeling. Affection and fondness have no objective; they simply exist as feelings in which the lover is disposed toward actions to which the recipient might or might not respond.

In contrast, limerence demands return. Other aspects of the limerent's life, including love, are sacrificed on behalf of the all-consuming need. While limerence has been called love, it is not love. Limerence is also not sexual attraction. Sex is neither essential nor adequate to satisfy the limerent need.

Interestingly, from Tennov’s survey of 500 people, only 73 percent of the females and 51 percent of the males agreed with the statement “I enjoy sex best when I am in love with my partner.”

It makes you think twice about excessively and unconditionally linking love and sex in a LTR. I am not preaching unfaithfulness, just realism. Great sex is not always dependent on love. For males, and I venture to say gay men, that is especially true.

This also struck a deep chord...

quote:

Limerence sometimes increases sexual interest in other partners when the limerent object is unreceptive or unavailable, such as married people finding sex with their spouses more pleasurable when they become limerent over someone else.

The article on limerence posted by Kimball is the most interesting description of a state I found myself a year after the death of my Jpartner of 30 years until the encounter with my second one two and a half years ago. I wish I had been able to read the Wikipedia article then as it would have helped me better understand and anticipate the failed outcome of that state. I had to smile reading the physical manifestations of limerence because they all applied to me at one time!

We, humans, think we are so complex, yet we all react in a similar fashion to given physical and mental stimuli, including love and sex. If we didn't have so much in common, we couldn't enjoy sharing our experiences on this thread, and psychology would be useless...

Thank you for joining us again, Kimball!

KF

Wikipedia...

quote:

Dorothy Tennov, while a professor of psychology at the University of Bridgeport, Connecticut, coined the term "limerence" in 1977, and first published it in her 1979 book Love and Limerence: The Experience of Being in Love. The word was pronounceable and seemed to her and two of her students to have a "fitting" sound.

Yes, well, as as Frenchman for whom the sound of a word is as important as its meaning, I think "limerence" is the ugliest word I have ever heard. It rhymes with "slimy".

I hate Dorothy for committing the sin of verbal ugliness, especially since she acknowledges borrowing the whole notion she expounds from Stendhal, the elegant, cosmopolitan French author, who initially named his idea "cristallisation", so much nicer, so much easier to conceptualize, used as a metaphor for burgeoning attraction.

Crystallization: we can easily visualize our feelings of attraction toward another person materializing into crystals that reflect in a prismatic array of colors all our hopes and fears.

Love and sex... what do those two words mean to YOU? How do YOU connect them? Are they on the same level? Which of them rules your life? Which of them leads to True Love for YOU? Simple answers please!

KF

I can love a man I have just met. I can love a man who I have never met. I can show love to a man with or without having sex. I can love a man I have known for 20 years with whom I no longer have sex. And I did it all this week!

To me, love is the very act of opening your heart, fully, and without reservation, and without regard to what you get in return or for how long. You can love without being loved back. But by loving first, YOU invoke the power to create the space in which mutual love can exist.

It's a variation on 'love the one you're with'; because, if I'm with someone, my heart's gonna be open, or I'm not doing it.

To have sex with someone while celebrating the act as one of joy and respect, with them as a worthy and willing partner, as opposed to one of abuse and degradation (except by absolutely mutual agreement, in which case it's respectful by definition)is..to me...the whole point.

And to be aware it has nothing to do with NECESSARILY choosing china patterns is...again, to me...the gift we have been given that sets us apart from -- above, in my view --our hetero brothers and sisters.

I'm literally, vitally, in my very essence, SO GLAD I'm gay.

quote:

Originally posted by CrashLandon2:
I'm literally, vitally, in my very essence, SO GLAD I'm gay.

Yesterday evening, walking back home from the office, I was thinking just the same thing! I am so happy to be what I am and wouldn't want my life to be any different.

Everything was meant to be the way it is. Like you, CrashLandon, I not only accept, but feel deeply grateful for what I am and everything my life is.

I wouldn't want it any other way.




Thank you for your optimism and vitality! It provides a great lesson to us all.

KF

quote:

Originally posted by kimball: my experience of relationships has been that I've been forced to face and deal with every bit of selfishness, pettyness and all that nasty stuff in myself, but also deeper issues.

I think love relationships are how we strip away the junk and find our true selves.

It is very difficult to find the true self, though, because most often we behave like mirrors reflecting the other in a love relationship, reacting in a kind of "eye for eye, tooth for tooth" manner in difficult situations.

When we do find our true selves, we are then capable of turning the other cheek in response to a "blow" from the other. Our love is also true when we can say "sorry" first, and dispense with reasons and excuses.

Sadly, that is not often the case...

KF

The early stages of attraction, infatuation and limerence are so much about ourselves.

True love and mindfulness in relationships are so much about sacrifice of our ego needs. Can there be true love without sacrifice?

Relationships remain a mystery in many ways but I believe the transition from the first stages to a "lifestyle" of the latter is one of the best ways to find our true selves. Undertaken mindfully the process is a pressure cooker of personal growth.

quote:

Originally posted by kimball:
True love and mindfulness in relationships are so much about sacrifice of our ego needs. Can there be true love without sacrifice?

In the early stages of attraction, infatuation and limerence, as you put it, one is almost willing to die for the love of the other. It is a self-sacrifice to the Altar of Love. A selfish fantasy, the stuff of operas and musicals.

True love is indeed -as you say- the sacrifice of our ego needs.

Limerence is all about oneself. True love is all about the other. In between is the time-consuming alchemy of trial and error... mostly error... that transforms the lead of egoism into the gold of altruism. Yet, like the myth of Sisyphus, this 'sacrifice of our ego needs' is a never-ending process...

Ego needs always roll back!

KF

Very pleased to see that Kimball has rejoined the legion of contributors, your observtions and thoughts are insightful.

I agree with KF that many of our deliberately coined words particularly in the area of personal relationships and psychology have a decided tendency to ring badly on the ear.

Love, Limerence, Sex, different things almost entirely, but so intertwined and related as to make discussing them as separate issues difficult at best. This much I think I know, at least from my own experience; all three are real, all three are distinct, but there is a tendency to slip from one to the other, and sometimes, not often for me at least, to slip back even with the same object of affection.

I am not sure that the above makes complete sense, but unfortunately when I write about emotions/emotional states things get muddled quickly.

quote:

Originally posted by Tommy-03:
Love, Limerence, Sex, different things almost entirely, but so intertwined and related as to make discussing them as separate issues difficult at best. This much I think I know, at least from my own experience; all three are real, all three are distinct, but there is a tendency to slip from one to the other, and sometimes, not often for me at least, to slip back even with the same object of affection.

Yes, Tommy, I think you are right. In fact, that is also what I meant by "trial and error" and the "Myth of Sisyphus", i.e. going back and forth, as you so correctly point out, from one state to another. In my case, though, I graduate quite quickly from limerence to the sex&love and then love&sex stages.

For me, True Love came much later when taking hands-on care of my beloved Jpartner, during the last five of the thirty years we shared together, until the fatal heart-attack during the night of January 15, 2003.

Sick people -in their despair- can be very difficult, almost cruel, toward those they love and need the most, but a smile was all I needed to feel rewarded ten-fold for whatever I did. I really did sacrifice my ego-needs during those years. Looking back, they were the most meaningful time of my life.

I am quite happy now -but it's not the same- with my much younger Jguy because he allows me to indulge in many of my ego-needs, sacrifing some of his own in the process. Fair enough!

How about you?

KF

To bring this discussion back to 'ground-zero' level, a sine-qua-non condition for true love in my case is respect of the other. I have a very strong ego, so to sacrifice its needs, I must be able to feel that it is for someone worthy of such a 'huge' sacrifice!

Strangely, in the 'limerent' stage, I am willing to sacrifice my whole person, to the point of abject humiliation, but once I have what I want, the 'limerent' object has to prove himself worthy of my sacrifice, and that ain't always easy!

Most members on this thread also seem to have strong ego needs! So with what kind of person can you feel true love for? What do you require most in him? Of him?

KF

quote:

Originally posted by Tommy-03:
Love, Limerence, Sex, different things almost entirely, but so intertwined and related as to make discussing them as separate issues difficult at best. This much I think I know, at least from my own experience; all three are real, all three are distinct, but there is a tendency to slip from one to the other, and sometimes, not often for me at least, to slip back even with the same object of affection.

So true! And to get the full picture we need to remember that our boyfriend/partner/other goes through his own cycles of slipping around. Relationships aren't easy, but I think in the slipping-effect-acknowledgment-reconciling cycle we learn so much about ourselves and our beloved.

With my JBF I finally came to the conclusion there was no complete escape from amai selfish behavior, that it was just part of the deal of having a JBF, so I let certain behaviors be okay and we ritualized them. It was like, "Okay, you get to be selfish and spoiled with those things, but not THIS." He made a similar latitude for me.

While we're discussing the difficulties of relationships, let's not forget "issues." As my friend's therapist told him, "Honey, we all got issues." Another time he told him, "Honey, don't you think it's time you packed away that wash-and-wear wedding dress?" Very good advice indeed as we seek or maintain True Love. For me at least, thoughts of "Oh man I wanna snare this one" or "I wanna move things to the boyfriend stage" or (early on) "I want a commitment" are warning signals. I do best when I have a certain detachment about what the future will bring and a determined mindfulness about the present. Not that I'm always successful...

quote:

Originally posted by kimball:
so I let certain behaviors be okay and we ritualized them.

Such a valuable lesson for all of us to implement! I can imagine your rituals...

In my case, it was preparing breakfast, giving massages. In return, I was complimented on my appearance just before leaving for the office, and my hand was grasped when watching a moving DVD in the evening...

The details of life, when ritualized, become a ceremony, a celebration of love.

KF

PS. I will have to say "Good Night" now from Tokyo to you, Californians, Tommy and Kim! Please continue sharing, and try and draw many others into the thread!

Two things I like to keep in mind when dealing with -- or reeling from -- love:

1) we tend to compare our INSIDES to everyone else's OUTSIDES. Meaning we know all our faults and flaws and often think we don't measure up to the supposedly awesome person we're making googly-eyes at.

2) Our egos help define what we like about our selves. I can't count the times I started a relationship with someone, then tried to change my behavior so they'd like me more...and then they lost interest because I stopped being who they liked in the first place!

To thine own self...you know?

PS: I also really admire the way Kimball and JBF were able to arrive at an understanding of what was acceptable and what wasn't. I wish my BF would talk about such things...or anything at all besides celebrity gossip or designer brand names. But then, that's why I'm here!

Great thread. I don't know whether any of the below will be helpful, but I offer these following thoughts according to thread chronology. Please excuse my reactiing/judging. That's really all I'm offering here. These judgments/reactions are for the most part malleable, so please make what you want out of 'em... Just my ramblings at 6 a.m.


:: :: :: :: ::


Min was not trying to seduce. It would be natural for a Korean male to put his arm around a fellow male in this way. Not as a come-on or a tease. It had nothing to do with sex or romance or homosexuality at all. It wasn't disrespectful or provocative in the least, at least not in its apparent intent. Male touching is as common as walking in Korea. No sexual or romantic meaning whatsoever.

If the teacher (KF's friend) had time to meditate on it, his better spirits would lead him past his internal reactivity/lust and on to compassion. Min was expressing human love, not male-male lust, and the right reaction to that - albeit hard to muster in moments when we're unprepared - is human-love-back-atcha. Nevertheless, I sympathize with the teacher. I understand how that moment must have felt.

Not that the teacher would be expected to have a right view about this, but he could have identified his infatuation as mere infatuation (as greg points out) and responded to Min with the appropriate human love, male bonding. In a perfect world, Min would also have a clue about the teacher's lust and struggle and be able to deal with that compassionately as well.


:: :: :: :: ::


On Lahdeedah's poetry: Man, the "love is" poem was so great!


:: :: :: :: ::


Hmmm... the trousers that cling to the man I love. Is it only a gay sentiment? Maybe the thread needs to acknowledge heterosexual sentiment as well. I'm finding more and more that the gay conversation - rigorously separated from the general human conversation - gives us a sort of artificially enclosed world. So many of the issues discussed in this thread apply to straights as well.


:: :: :: :: ::


Regarding the lyrics to "Something Wonderful" (from the King & I)... I played the Nina Simone version for my JBF a couple of weeks ago and demanded that he read the words while listening. He nearly wept and gave me a tight, long embrace shortly after. (I won't tell you who felt which role. Hehe.)


:: :: :: :: ::


Tenagor: Cleo Laine, nice choice


:: :: :: :: ::


Jaejae, so jaded, so sad, so understandable.


:: :: :: :: ::


RE: Richard Isay book: Nice stuff!


:: :: :: :: ::


KF: Yeah, I'm in the deepest of long relationships, yet lusting for others full time. Sha'nai ne.


:: :: :: :: ::


Kimball: I've got a limerant object in my life now. It's a beautiful thing. (And KF will understand that it poses no threat to my long-term partnership.) Thanks for the word!


:: :: :: :: ::


KF writes: "Great sex is not always dependent on love. For males, and I venture to say gay men, that is especially true." But I think straight men and gay men feel this to the same degree. Lately, I see almost no difference at all between straight male infatuations and gay male infatuations (aside from the gender of the object).


:: :: :: :: ::


I'm in awe of Crash's prose sometimes:

quote:

I can love a man I have just met. I can love a man who I have never met. I can show love to a man with or without having sex. I can love a man I have known for 20 years with whom I no longer have sex. And I did it all this week!

To me, love is the very act of opening your heart, fully, and without reservation, and without regard to what you get in return or for how long. You can love without being loved back. But by loving first, YOU invoke the power to create the space in which mutual love can exist.

:: :: :: :: ::


This, from Kimball, resonates with me:

quote:

True love and mindfulness in relationships are so much about sacrifice of our ego needs. Can there be true love without sacrifice?

:: :: :: :: ::

Taddy,

quote:

I've got a limerant object in my life now. It's a beautiful thing. (And KF will understand that it poses no threat to my long-term partnership.)

I understand so well. Limerence toward an 'outside the relationship' object can actually enhance True Love in a LTR so long as we remain mindful of the other and are used to sacrificing our ego needs (to borrow Kimball's great words) for the sake of the relationship.

Such limerence is good for you, Taddy, and good for Jguy because it makes you more intense, loving and grateful for the wonderful things in your life.

And on the topic of wonderful, I was deeply moved by what you wrote,

quote:

Regarding the lyrics to "Something Wonderful" (from the King & I)... I played the Nina Simone version for my JBF a couple of weeks ago and demanded that he read the words while listening. He nearly wept and gave me a tight, long embrace shortly after. (I won't tell you who felt which role. Hehe.)

So much true love in that scene of you and Jguy listening to Nina Simone (whose version is also my favorite)!

Love, romance, commitment, sacrifice: those four words bring out the very best in us, and enrich our lives more than anything else can possibly do.

When one's loved one goes away... the songs remain. Here is another wonderful poem by Lahdeedah,

quote:

SAYONARA

Goodbye?
there was no goodbye
you upped and left, that's all
(with me at work that day)
you packed your books, your clothes
our friendship
(not really yours to take)
and all your reasons why

that last song
didn't even fade
it stopped
short
the CD left unchanged

(the aftersilence crackles)

then packed away beneath your art
your jokes, your tales
our last unsaid farewell

so now it seems
I'm left alone

(goodbye then, housemate
bye then, friend)

to play the songs
I knew you'd love
and wanted you to hear

KF

KF said:

quote:

Limerence toward an 'outside the relationship' object can actually enhance True Love in a LTR

I probably sound like the guilty husband skulking home after doing something I shouldn't have, but I find it's true. I never love my baby more than when I first see him after I've just been with someone else. So WHY don't I feel that way when I'm WITH him?

Aside from me being a skank, please. That's an easy shot.

Perhaps because of the different aspects of the "other" and the "one". While you enjoy one man's charms, you know the "one" is a better match to you.

This has been a great thread to read. I want to thank all the contributors for helping me understand myself and my relationship with IBF so much better.

Though I must say I share KF's opinion of the word. I do like the imagery of crystallization better -- but maybe because I am a chemical engineer!

My two (pick your currency) is that true love is indeed one of sacrificing your own ego for your partner. With IBF, it is the first time I can truly "let him go" if that is what is best for him. Before, it was always a "possessive" kind of love. Fortunately for me, he chooses to remain with me. As the song says, not always wise, but always thinking with his heart.

Just earlier, this morning, I was wondering how my friend Paul felt about and would reply to the topic of true love, knowing through his posts about his LTR. His contribution to this thread was very deeply hoped for.

Prayers do get answered!

KF

KF -- I have to agree. Paul's response left me in breathless awe. What a GREAT guy. I wish I had half his presence of mind...since I'm only about HALF as good-looking!

Speaking of True Love, who here thinks it happens once and only once in a lifetime? And who among us believes you can have more than one true love simultaneously?

Any serial monogamists among us? Surely, some of us have used Liz Taylor and the Gabor sisters as our role models!

I'll go first: if you only get one true love in life, then I've used up 5 or 6 other people's chances at it. And be warned, you single (or frankly, even married) J-guys out there -- I'm not done yet: I seriously believe that the best one of all is still yet to be.

quote:

Originally posted by CrashLandon2:
Any serial monogamists among us?

Good question! I think most of us would like to think we are serial, but serious monogamists. Serial meaning "one at at time"... serious meaning committed.

This morning, the paper reported that 60 percent of people in Tokyo, Aichi and Osaka prefectures find their spouses tiring... Living together in a partnership suppposedly built on mutual love is not that easy when you have to deal with the contingencies of daily life...

37% of men cited nagging, especially about cleaning up, the number one fault in their wives, while the latter ranked failure to do chores at home as their main complaint. Men wanted to hear from their partners when they are tired "Take it easy", "You must be tired" and "Are you OK?", while wives wanted their husbands to ask them "Shall I prepare a meal?", "Shall I massage your shoulders?" or "Do you want a massage?"...

It all boils down to mutual consideration and not taking the other for granted. Finding the other tiring is pathetic, yet that is what the majority feel about their partners.

Limerence, the attraction toward another, can be a recipie to revive feelings of love, enthusiasm and affection toward a LTR partner. As mentioned earlier on this thread, limerence can enhance a LTR that is losing its "punch", "flash" and "dash".

My own preference is for a single, steady, long relationship with occasional bouts of limerence and very occasional (and totally discreet) physical "quickies" to feel that I still have my charms... Here again, the "on-the-side" sex is only a means of spicing things up, not betraying my partner, in the Main Relationship, i.e. that of True Love.

Serial is fine but a little sad...

KF